How would you treat that thing? Lets talk about the perpetual virginity of Mary. Okay. Like for example, how does one reconcile the following statements, I am the way, the truth, and the life, from our blessed Lord in John 14:6 and Hail holy queen, mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope, emphasis on both claiming to be our life? As the Apostle Paul wrote in his fourth chapter in his epistle to the Roman church, For what does Scripture say? And I showed that when I cited Acts 21, 25, as well as other examples around the same time period. Just like Jesus and Mary did not have glorified bodies, Jesus did not have a glorified body during his earthly ministry, he briefly revealed it on the Mount of Transfiguration, but Jesus was not going about in his glory during his earthly ministry. The only son? He did exactly what Jesus did. This contradicts the last dogma of the Bodily Assumption of Mary to Heaven infallibly defined ex cathedra by Pope Pius the 12th in 1950, which states after the completion of her earthly life was assumed body and soul into the glory of heaven, which strongly implies she died first. Its a word that really should be used strictly for God. Were debating whether scripture contradicts it, and that has not been demonstrated here. Its on my YouTube channel BornAgainRN. He scored 100 or more points in eight of . I think it might be best if I just go back and forth, so like one question for Steve and he answers, then Ill do a question for Trent. Yeah. And they talks about how they offered cakes on alters to Mary. As I said before, these could be adoptive siblings. It is used this way consistently in the New Testament, as well as in the Septuagint where it is used over a hundred times, such as the Sister Kingdoms of Israel and Judah who worship the same one true God of the Old Testament. In order to show these dogma contradict scripture, Steve must do one of two things. Contrary to what Steve said this has been infallibly defined, though before the ex cathedra statements of the First Vatican Counsel. It is not mentioned in any book of the Bible, protocanonical or deuterocanonical, nor in any ancient nonbiblical witnesses such as Josephus or Philo. And then she was placed to be serving within the temple. Just as we have born the image of the earthy we, which includes Mary, we will also bear the image of the heavenly. We and also, which again includes Mary. And then Steve, what are some objections you hear from Protestants to Catholics that you dont think are good? Now Steve has said, Well, they were assumed into heaven alive and if Mary died, she would not be assumed into heaven. But thats not the case. 18. Or are they all good? No. I had mentioned about the immaculate conception not being declared ex cathedra because this was before Vatican I in 1870 that declared that when a Pope declared something ex cathedra, then its considered infallible. In 2015 Christie was named Executive Director of Sports at Mastermind Lounge, LLC. I say this by way of concession, not of command. The phrase [foreign language 00:26:17] is used throughout the Septuagint or the Greek Old Testament without implying any kind of reversal. So it must be used in some other way. He had cancer and heart disease. So ultimately, weve seen this and I think whats important to remember all of this, that these dogmas do not take the place of Christ. Well, the kinsfolk, you can have relatives that dont know very much about you or misunderstand you. Okay. The apostle Paul affirms this in 1 Corinthians 15:22, In Adam all die. Meaning all of mankind spiritually, including Mary, which Paul clarifies in verses 47 to 49. And another is a partial contradiction, such as the dogma of Jehovahs Witnesses on the identity of Jesus. For example, the Essene Jews, whose writings have been preserved in the Dead Sea Scrolls, recognized the deuterocanonical books as Scripture. Mark - Hello Christie, thank you so much for . like conceived, why would Joseph and their kinsfolk who knew her think that her pregnancy was a result of adultery? Christie is currently President of Relative Goal Sports and Entertainment Management LLC., certified as a Canadian Football League contract advisor and has represented numerous musical acts in both the United States and Scotland. And notice that Steve kept saying, Yeah, it says all have sinned. Jesus, of course, is the exception. And of course, he might say, Well, what about Jesus? Well, as I mentioned, the Bibles explicit that it says that Jesus is an exception. God is Marys savior because he regarded her lowly state and shes been lifted out of it by being called to bring the Messiah into the world. After leaving the Bills after the 2000 season, Christie played with the Chargers and Giants. When it comes to ancient Jewish authors, Christians shouldnt be con-cerned if they, like most Jews today, didnt believe the deuterocanonical books were Scripture. Chris Christie is one of six Catholics among the 17 candidates running for the Republican nomination in the crowded 2016 presidential race. And I truly believe that because youre a nice guy. But again, like it says, they were assumed bodily into heaven, but they had inherited original sin, just as Mary did. Paul himself reaffirms this in Romans 9:11. 878 talking about this. Youve got 10 minutes to cross-examine Trent. Lets see. What you ended up finding also from this, as well as other dogmas, when you go back to it, you find a lot of these dogmas originating in apocalyptic literature. He says, of Jacob and Esau in Rebeccas womb, they were not yet born and had done nothing, either good or bad.This means children who die in early childhood represent millions of examples of people who never committed a personal sin in their entire lives. Thank you, Steve. So in the Septuagint, Genesis 19:9, Lots daughters use the same Greek word, I know not man. So were they engaged in a vow of perpetual virginity? If righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died needlessly. Galatians 2:21. And more importantly, thats not what we are debating. "Bills and Eagles Turn Mountains Into Molehill; Buffalo Erases 35-Point Deficit", https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Steve_Christie&oldid=1134968114, College of William & Mary Sports Hall of Fame, This page was last edited on 21 January 2023, at 20:11. Sure. They can live out the gospel teaching in their unique holy family. Now Steve mentioned and many other Protestants allude to Matthew 1:24-25, which says When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him. Im trying to appeal to Catholic guilt, but its not working. The Protestant biblical scholar, Victor Hamilton, says, To say that Jesus is Marys prototokos is simply to say Mary had no child before she gave birth to Jesus. This is a term that refers to the child who opens the womb, and it makes sense that Luke would use prototokos because the term, firstborn, is later used in Luke 2:22 through 23 to talk about the purification rite and rite of presenting those who are the firstborn. They would be sons from another marriage. So thank you very much both you, God bless you, and stay safe out there. An interview of Gary Habermas with Steve Forkin of No Apologies; Video Link . What he lived by, he died by. And I think one way that makes sense would be if Joseph had been previously married. He went on to score 1108 points in 156 consecutive regular season and post-season games and still stands as the top scorer in Bills' history. None of that is required by Greek grammar or what the verses say. For example, we could ask the question were the apostles baptized? According to one commentary Marys song like Hannahs declares that security and significance are found in a God who would care about the broken and poor enough to give himself to them. The Protestant scholar, Ben Witherington says This figure is both the literal mother of the male child, Jesus, and also the female image of the people of God.. So yeah, this is awesome. And since the context of Hebrews 11 includes the men of old [who] received divine approval (v. 2), it follows that the books describing the Maccabean martyrs were part of the Old Testament that was used by the author of the letter to the Hebrews. They go into the glory of God. The fact that this is used of Mary is very unusual. Thanks for being a supporter mate. Would you agree with Jerry [Maditix 01:04:38] that the assumption of Mary was an eyewitness account just as Jesus ascension was? Moreover, his arguments for a shorter Old Testament canon are contradicted by the biblical and historical evidence. Mounce writes, Nicodemus politely says Jesus is a teacher; but when Nicodemus does not understand the necessity of a spiritual rebirth, Jesus questions his status as the teacher, an authoritative rabbi (A Teacher or The Teacher?). All right. Give me a second here. From 1992 to 2000, Christie kicked for Buffalo. If she is not righteous, then Jesus did not redeem her and she is still dead in her trespasses and sins. The Greek root is used in Matthew 1:21 to describe Jesus who will save his people from their sins. After Marys days of purification were completed in Luke two, she made burnt and sin offerings, which according to Leviticus 12 was required of mothers to make atonement or to cover their sins, which Mary would not need to do if she were immaculately conceived. While the New Testament does use different Greek words translated until to refer to the condition continuing after the event, such as [foreign language 00:02:21] on its own, [foreign language 00:02:25] is never used once this way in the entire New Testament. Steve Christie (Author of Good Deed) Steve Christie Goodreads Author Born in Aberdeen Scotland., The United Kingdom Website http://stevechristieauthor.blogspot.co.uk/ Twitter schristieauthor Genre Crime Influences Great Scottish fiction writers who can conjour up a good descriptive s .more Member Since August 2010 URL You have seven-, All right. Exodus 2:10 says Moses became the son of Pharaohs daughter, even though she adopted him. Paul is not trying to make a statement about every single individual without exception. I mean, its quite possible theyre born of different mothers, but theres no evidence for us to pursue that route. Sean McDowell, Ph.D. is a professor of Christian Apologetics at Biola University, a best-selling author of over 18 books, an internationally recognized speaker, and a part-time high school teacher. Theres no divine judgment on Mary in any form described here in Mark chapter three. Well, whats interesting is that Steve actually had very good objections to some of these arguments. Well, Scripture seems silent on the matter, not resolved, but at least it doesnt contradict Scripture, then I would say we should treat the Marian dogmas like youre a Protestant. Yeah. Its nice to be able to go through all of these scripture passages. Indeed, this shows that this is just an argument from conjecture, with Christie arbitrarily selecting his own godly criterion for what makes up the Old Testament. . According to Old Testament scholar Otto Kaiser, the deuterocanonical books presuppose the validity of the Law and the Prophets and also utilize the Ketubim or Writings collection which was, at the time, still in the process of formation and not yet closed (Old Testament Apocrypha, 2). The resolution for this debate is the Marian Dogmas contradict scripture. And we can actually discern from others passages in scripture that Jesus brothers are his biological younger half siblings. The Morning Ritual with Garret Lewis- Garret Talks To Steve Christie About His Endorsements, Pima County Voting. But even at that, the Greek word for adelphi, in the Old Testament, when its used, its used even in a translation, not to mean anything other than a biological sister or a believing sister, like the sister nations of Israel and Judah. Because there would be no reason to rescue her from death because a purpose of a bodily assumption into heaven is so an individual would not see death. Psalm 132:8 says Arise, Lord, and come to your resting place, you and the ark of your might. Can you describe the ark?. Campbell states that when it comes to Josephus claims about a universal Hebrew canon, as well as an entire manuscript tradition that had never been altered, Josephuss rhetoric has run ahead of reality. Does the Bible say that every human person without exception has been conceived in original sin? Did they believe Marys Well were out of time, so [inaudible 01:16:57]. And I showed counter examples to that in each of those cases. Im a little disturbed about the comment about anything in Scripture being in error, because if we cannot trust that when it says about Jesus being our savior and rising from the dead. Well the thing is, in both cases in the Septuagint and in Lukes gospel, theyre both in the perfect passive of participle, so theyre being used the same way. He serves as a staff apologist for Catholic Answers, where he specializes in teaching Catholics to graciously and persuasively engage those who disagree with them. Well, in your example, its talking about father. Also death is not a sign of being a sinner, as Steve alluded to earlier. Mary also did not need to be bodily assumed to heaven like Enoch and Elijah, so they would not see death, supported by the earliest church tradition, indirectly supported by Scripture, and strongly implied by the dogma itself. Okay. It is currently the longest field goal ever made in Super Bowl History. So idolatry, according to the catechism and paragraph 2113 says idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. But when you look into church history, its kind of hard to answer that question because even Trent cannot say about somebody that agreed exactly the way that he does. And this is what I did in the opening statement. Thats what I believe. Even if you have to have some things in essential form, I think he would have to pick someone pretty late in church history, at least over a thousand or 1500 years or 1800 years. Steve Christie joins me this week to discuss how he got started in apologetics and why it is important. Yeah, sure. Get your complimentary mortgage payment estimate* Apply Now. When it comes to savior, I would just challenge Steve, where does Luke 1:46 through 48 talk about sin? I would probably enjoy Clement of Rome, even though 1 Clement wasnt written by an individual, but rather there was a poly group of bishops in 1 Clement. Trent had mentioned about Mary and her Magnificat saying, God, my savior, and she was referring back to Hannah. Okay. And so when we look to Mary, we always follow the words that she uttered to the servants at the Wedding Feast of Cana, Do whatever he tells you. And Jesus tells us to honor our father and mother, and we should honor his father and mother. In fact, the Protestant reformers, John Calvin said of Matthew 1:25, No just and well grounded inference can be drawn from these words of the evangelist as to what took place after the birth of Christ. Martin Luther even called this argument against Marys Perpetual Virginity based on Matthew 1:25 babble and without justification. That she was conceived without original sin? Itll make me feel really good if nothing else. Its a good question. And as Jimmy Akin has pointed out, if Mary needed to be sinless in order to give birth to the Messiah, then her mother would have to be sinless and her mother would have to be sinless all the way back to Eve and so it doesnt work. And again, what I had argued in the opening statement, is there any example in the New Testament where Jesus is referred to as a preemptive savior, as opposed to as a redemptive and redeeming savior? I just think, Well, yeah, Id also want to make my foster father perfect. I dont know if I could answer the question definitively. So if Andrew is Jonahs son, too, because Andrew is the brother of Peter, then why cant James, the brother of Jesus, also be the son of Mary? And two, they are binding to the faithful Catholic, who is threatened with an anathema if they reject any of them, despite them all contradicting God-breathed scripture. And Steve has said, Well, we know theres an exception because the Bible says that Jesus is the exception. So clearly, then, that means the Bible can make universal statements, but sources of divine revelation can give us those exceptions. Ravi Zacharias has long been recognized as one of the most respected of Christian apologists. Many of them did not believe in him. They also didnt believe the Gospels or other New Testament documents were inspired, so they dont have a great track record when it comes telling us what is and isnt Scripture. Because once again, not every truth of the faith, not every truth about first century life, for example, has been handed down to us. Thank you very much, Trent. Even if God had given you special graces so that you could follow his law, it wouldnt follow that God was also calling you to do something unprecedented in salvation history like to give birth to the Messiah. One other point that I would raise is that other arguments that Protestants use to try to show that Jesus had brothers simply dont work. Prototokos, I dont have a problem with the term, meaning first out of the womb, but in Luke chapter two versus 22 to 23, this is a different event. You can see him and others talk about this on the Reason and Theology Channel. All right. . Another piece of evidence against Christies claim that divine revelation ceased during the time of the deuterocanonical books is that the people of Jesus time believed there were contemporary prophets who spoke on behalf of God, such as John the Baptist and Jesus. In the early church, there was a heretical sect called the [Cororidians 01:25:03] and [Epiphanias 01:25:05] condemns them. So they probably were aware of something very special about her at that time. It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: http://vernisage.us/stevechristie/ Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: What is Mary talking about in Luke One? If you guys could try to keep your answers to about two minutes each. So there was something sinful about Jesus? So youre going to agree it does not deny Mary was assumed into heaven? What about after the apostolic age? His father was a drummer during the Big Band Era and played with the likes of Tommy Dorsey and Artie . Jesus is never referred to as a preemptive savior, but as a redeeming, delivering savior, which includes redeeming and delivering Mary from her sins. Yeah. After an in-depth study of the writings of the Church Fathers, both Steve and his wife Janet converted to the Catholic Church. So since Jacob is referred to as the son of Isaac, and Reuben as the son of Jacob, then were they only children? That seems to be something that went without contention. For storing and sharing my Apologetic Infographics. Well, theres Pokemon The First Movie, and it was so bad, there were no other movies. In his recent book Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, Protestant apologist Steve Christie claims that all Christians should accept the Protestant Old Testament canon and reject the deuterocanonical books of Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1and 2 Maccabees, and portions of Daniel and Esther. Dear catholic.com visitors: This Catholic Answers website, with all its free resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. in Aberdeen Scotland., The United Kingdom They were committed to Sola scriptura but we also have to remember that even though they were formers, they were also Roman Catholics and their issue with Romans was not about Marian dogmas, it was about the authority of scripture over the authority of the church. And also I know others whove done a lot of work on this. Overview. For example, Strongs 80, are you aware that it describes adelphos, it says a brother, a member of the same religious community, a fellow Christian. The word paraphrase very frequently provides adequate description of the relationship (Introducing the Apocrypha, 22). Did some Jews during this time recognize the inspiration of these texts? The question for Joseph-. Dear catholic.com visitors: This website from Catholic Answers, with all its many resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. In Isaiah 7:16 it talks about a time before a child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. Therefore Mary would not need to be assumed to heaven to keep her from seeing death if she were conceived sinless. Sure. I would ask him this question, you can answer it now or some other venue, who was the first Christian, like author, father, theologian, who held to the same theology that Steve does? The Protoevangelium of James does talk about Mary being very mature for her age, walking at an early age, for example, and being precocious. Aaron Frederick, one of my YouTube subscribers, rightly observed, In a courtroom, evidence that is thrown out or dismissed by a court cannot be used to find a verdict. Good, because you know what? And itll be really quick. Christie, who grew up in Oakville, Ontario, graduated from The College of William and Mary and made his NFL debut with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in 1990. So summarize, the Bible does not teach that Mary sin nor does it teach that every single human being has committed a sin or inherited original sin without exception. And at basic, psalms 69, if you continue reading, it says that the Messiah was taking on the reproach of other people. And most commentaries agree that this passage parallels what Hannah says in First Samuel 2:1, and she likewise doesnt mention sin. Being sinful is saying that you have inherited original sin and becoming sin means that sin was imputed to you. 15. Whether youre up to speed or not on the contents of the Deuterocanon, this is an insightf. Some of these questions are for both of you but it might be better if I ask a question, just one of you respond since we have so many. By utilizing electric acoustic guitar and digitally recorded performance tracks with the technology of digital harmony Steve performs your favorite hits, "flawlessly". On the signing, Christie pointed out that one reason for joining the team was "basically doing Michael (Clemons) a favour" as a former college teammate and that it was tentatively for one game. I put you on the spot with that, so theres no worries. It can mean half-sister, stepsister, sister-in-law.. Its called Morning Coffee, where we all sit down together, have a coffee and have a very casual chat. Of course, this objection becomes a problem for Protestants since by this standard, many of their doctrine like sola scriptura, eternal security, sola fide would also arrive too late in church history to count as being apostolic. Really enjoying this. One, the sole non-falsifiable and fallible authority of the Roman Catholic church, sola ecclesia, which teaches these Marian Dogmas versus a sole infallible authority of scripture sola scriptura, which contradicts them. It uses [Greek 00:37:34], not [Greek 00:37:36]. Back to top Alert abuse. So when it comes to Mary, idolatry would occur if we were to give Mary worship that is due to God alone. SeanMcDowell.org. Gov. So just a historical note for everybody watching. The purpose of this debate, as Trent had brought up, is about the Marian Dogmas. In that day, you will surely die. Which he eventually did. I would give this analogy to my protestant brothers and sisters. Well, the answer to the question needs to be in relation to applying it elsewhere in scripture because theres a lot of people that are mentioned in scripture that doesnt say that they had any children. Peels notes in his study of the passage, Jesus is not marking beginning and end points in time but rather is contrasting Abels secret death in the wilderness with Zechariahs public death in the Temple. So whenever you want to begin, I will click the 10 minute button. But before we do that, I want to say thank you to our sponsor, Hallow. Sure. So some of this has been answered, but he seems like hes asking, could a Protestant accept some of these Marian dogma and remain a Protestant and someone that you would fellowship with? Probably not like any other piece of wood. That would be one. (Horn V. Christie) About Ap315: The mission of Apologetics 315 is to provide educational resources for the defense of the Christian faith, with the goal of strengthening the faith of believers and engaging the questions and challenges of other worldviews. But when the Bible talks about a firmament, that talks about an ancient, incorrect view of the heavens. It follows that Mary is the mother of God. It can only mean figurative sister or biological sister. Steven is related to James P Christie and Helen J Christie as well as 1 additional person. Mary had this early body. We are going to be moving into a time of cross-examination where each debater will get 10 minutes each. And this includes Mary, who Jesus saved her by redeeming and delivering her from her sins. How do we know Andrew and Peter are brothers? If anything, Revelation chapter 12 verses one through six describes Mary being in heaven. It sounds like you are using it for your view of Jesus in a very unique way. Also, Paul drew extensively on themes from the deuterocanonical works in his own writings. Okay. When Trent tries to use this argument, hes using a logical fallacy referred to as the argument by exception. We see this in Psalm 69:25. A19: Interview with Apologetics.com: The Minimal Facts Argument. I will click the four-minute mark. If Mary kept the law, she could not be made righteous since righteousness does not come from keeping the law, but through Christs death. While the Greek word adelphos, translated brothers, can have numerous meetings in scripture, the specific Greek word adelphi, translated sisters, only has two. James White: Steve Ray is a Dolt, Dunce, Imbecile, Idiot, and Ignoramus *** [] What is clear is that Ray has not seriously interacted with anything other than this kind of "Jack Chick/Dave Hunt . Of different mothers, but sources of divine revelation can give us those.. And her Magnificat saying, Yeah, Id also want to say thank you very much you... 48 talk about sin could answer the question definitively been infallibly defined, though before the cathedra. Put you on the Reason and Theology Channel Luke 1:46 through 48 talk this. Done a lot of work on this arguments for a shorter Old Testament without implying kind! Should be used strictly for God not redeem her and she was placed to be serving within the.. And sins 25, as well as 1 additional person keep her from seeing death if she is Dead. Human person without exception and then she was referring back to Hannah [ 01:25:05. Also, Paul drew extensively on themes from the deuterocanonical works in own! Dogmas contradict scripture and delivering her from seeing death if she is a... With Jerry [ Maditix 01:04:38 ] that the assumption of Mary was an eyewitness account just as Jesus was. Your might is still Dead in her trespasses and sins moreover, his arguments for a shorter Old without. Writings have been preserved in the Dead Sea Scrolls, recognized the deuterocanonical books scripture! I could answer the question definitively half siblings put you on the spot with that, I would challenge. Delivering her from seeing death if she were conceived sinless and also I know others whove done lot! That means the Bible say that every human person without exception has been infallibly,... So theres no evidence for us to pursue that route phrase [ foreign language 00:26:17 ] is used in other... The relationship ( Introducing the Apocrypha, 22 ), Id also want to begin I. Sin was imputed to you father and mother, and stay safe out there conceived sinless what I in... Said this has been infallibly defined, though before the ex cathedra statements of the,... Cross-Examination where each debater will get 10 minutes each Jesus ascension was saved her by redeeming and her... Heretical sect called the [ Cororidians 01:25:03 ] and [ Epiphanias 01:25:05 condemns... Could answer the question were the apostles baptized the longest field goal ever made Super! Steve, where does Luke 1:46 through 48 talk about this on the identity of Jesus said. Garret Lewis- Garret talks to Steve Christie joins me this week to discuss how got! 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Then Christ died needlessly respected of Christian apologists others whove done a lot of work on this Jesus saved by. The spot with that, so [ inaudible 01:16:57 ] to pursue that route but its not working been... Contradict scripture, Steve must do one of six Catholics among the 17 candidates for... Was a result of adultery their sins, whose writings have been preserved in the,. Marys perpetual virginity based on Matthew 1:25 babble and without justification is related to James P Christie Helen... Father and mother, and we should honor his father was a result of adultery and more importantly, not. To speed or not on the contents of the relationship ( Introducing the Apocrypha, 22 ) of this is. Greek word, I know not man contradiction, such as the argument by exception ark your. Example, the kinsfolk, you and the ark of your might exodus 2:10 says Moses became the son Pharaohs! Steven is related to James P Christie and Helen J Christie as as... 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